tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2883204318916261809.post3933686833665664371..comments2022-05-22T13:35:55.986+02:00Comments on Changwat, Amphoe, Tambon: Administrative history of PattaniAndyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17710647861853833065noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2883204318916261809.post-48487794324020799522016-12-01T12:46:52.766+01:002016-12-01T12:46:52.766+01:00Hi Andreas,
Came across this conversation again a...Hi Andreas,<br /><br />Came across this conversation again after some time now. Apologies, but I'm not sure I've sent the map mentioned above via email. I'm not sure I can see your email provided in this blog or your google profile. How best do I contact you?<br /><br />Thanks,<br /><br />Kareem Radixhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18292189599542371626noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2883204318916261809.post-59915282972983808722009-05-11T13:56:00.000+02:002009-05-11T13:56:00.000+02:00Thanks a lot, you're digging out interesting thing...Thanks a lot, you're digging out interesting things as well. I have only looked into the case of Thepa so far, and <A HREF="http://amphoe.com/menu.php?mid=1&am=620&pv=56" REL="nofollow">amphoe.com</A> states that Thepha at that time was a third-class <I>Mueang</I> <B>and</B> subordinate of Songkhla. So drawing it as a separate entity must have been a misunderstanding by the map-maker. amphoe.com also says nothing about a transfer from Pattani, already in the reign of Rama II it was transferred from Phatthalung to Songkhla.<br /><br />Chana district has their own website, and the <A HREF="http://www.chana-sk.go.th/index.php?cmd=history" REL="nofollow">history page</A> is quite long - I still have to try to read it to see if it is similar there.<br /><br />Finding corresponding announcements in the Royal Gazette is quite difficult - my Thai isn't good enough, and unlike the more recent announcements those from that time seem to be not as well-standardized in their form. So in these I have to actually read them, while nowadays the text is nearly the same, only the names of the entities involved gets exchanged. As by far not as many administrative acts were actually written down in the Gazette as are today, so it's also possible that some of the changes you see have no written proof in there and one has to search into the archive of records of the Ministry of Interior for it instead.<br /><br />Anyway, I will continue to look for more information for you. It'd be great if you could send me a scan of that map by email.Andyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17710647861853833065noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2883204318916261809.post-24672559045450470072009-05-10T03:46:00.000+02:002009-05-10T03:46:00.000+02:00Dear Andy,
I found a map in this article (see cit...Dear Andy,<br /><br />I found a map in this article (see citation)that shows a few interesting observations regarding the situation of the siamese administration of the Malay south at the moment of the AngloSiamese treaty 1909:<br /><br />1) Perlis divided in two<br />2) the existence of an administrative entity (not labeled in the map) that closely matches the borders of the current district of sadao<br />3) chana and tepa labelled as if of the same administrative level as that of the other administrative entities (that is, not subsumed under songkhla)<br />4) Raman and Rangae's extent into current Perak and Kelantan respectively<br />5) Narathiwat's amphoe Taba being under Kelantan (known by people in Kelantan as Daerah Tabal (Tabal District))<br /><br />I would be very grateful if you could provide me with copies of the legal instruments that set in place/sanctioned the existence of the administrative entities 1-5 if possible, also of Satun too if possible.<br /><br />I would also be grateful for further comments.<br /><br />Citation:<br /><br />Blackwell Publishing on behalf of The Royal Geographical Society (with the<br />Institute of British Geographers, The New British-Protected Malay States: Kelantan, Trengganu, and Keda, The Geographical Journal, Vol. 33, No. 4, Apr., pp. 478-485. 1909Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16351496993788606178noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2883204318916261809.post-3987690625985034592009-03-28T03:20:00.000+01:002009-03-28T03:20:00.000+01:00Thanks for the reply :)1)I guess for now Chana and...Thanks for the reply :)<BR/><BR/>1)I guess for now Chana and Thepa's official gazettement as part of songkhla remains a grey area.<BR/><BR/>2)Another area which might be of interest to you is Northern Perak which I had heard was part of Raman, a district of old Patani. Any comments?<BR/><BR/>3)I don't read any Thai - any chance the PDFs of the gazettement documents could be translated?<BR/><BR/>4)just a word of appreciation on your wonderful blog. Amazing work!Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16351496993788606178noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2883204318916261809.post-69722297444458076682009-03-20T12:51:00.000+01:002009-03-20T12:51:00.000+01:00As for Sadao, amphoe.com says "อำเภอสะเดาเดิมเป็นต...As for Sadao, <A HREF="http://amphoe.com/menu.php?mid=1&am=625&pv=56" REL="nofollow">amphoe.com</A> says "อำเภอสะเดาเดิมเป็นตำบล ชื่อตำบลสะเดา ขึ้นอยู่กับอำเภอจังโหลน จังหวัดไทรบุรี ต่อมาปี 2452" - until 1909 Amphoe Sadao was a Tambon under Amphoe Wang Lom, Sai Buri province. Sai Buri was the Thai name for Kedah. So it's right, Sadao was originally part of Kedah and only came to Songkhla when Kedah was ceased to the British.<BR/><BR/>All I know for Chana and Thepa is that they were under Songkhla in 1917, and that the anonymous Wikipedia editor stated that the transfer was "recently". Recently can of course meant to be relative to the whole history of Pattani, so it's possible that it already happened in 1785. But even if it happened in 1900 I wouldn't call that recently :-)<BR/><BR/>I haven't read that book, I am always a bit skeptical with self-published books, especially on such controversial topics like this, and was also a bit annoyed that the author repeatably added his blog to Wikipedia despite being asked not to spam.Andyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17710647861853833065noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2883204318916261809.post-2264501115618905432009-03-20T11:23:00.000+01:002009-03-20T11:23:00.000+01:00Thank you Andy,With regards to Chana and Thepa, I ...Thank you Andy,<BR/><BR/>With regards to Chana and Thepa, I hae read in the book, Patani; Behind the Accidental Border by K. Perkasa, that these were split off after/during Siam's conquest of Patani in 1785. What do you think of this?<BR/><BR/>Also, could you confirm the information on Wikipedia, which could've come from here, that Sadao was split off from Kedah in 1909?Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16351496993788606178noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2883204318916261809.post-87598632777051179532009-03-18T22:31:00.000+01:002009-03-18T22:31:00.000+01:00The change from khaek to boriwen was only a change...The change from khaek to boriwen was only a change in name, so it was also referred to as khaek jet huamuang in the beginning of the thesaphiban reforms. The exchange of the word khaek (Malay) from the name simply should stress more that it is Siamese territory, not Malay territory under Siamese overlordship.<BR/><BR/>One thing I did not mention in the article was the fact that in 1896 a first permanent commissioner was sent from Bangkok to supervise the seven local leaders, ten years before this was formalized with the creation of the monthon. The whole thesaphiban reforms were a gradual thing with different paces at different parts of the country.<BR/><BR/>Chana and Thepa were split off from other districts after 1917, the year of oldest complete district list I have. For Saba Yoi I haven't yet found the official reference for the dates in Wikipedia, which originate from amphoe.com.Andyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17710647861853833065noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2883204318916261809.post-5852021883804121772009-03-18T19:08:00.000+01:002009-03-18T19:08:00.000+01:001 question and 1 comment:You mentioned that the kh...1 question and 1 comment:<BR/><BR/>You mentioned that the khaek jet huamunag were brought into the central government 1874 - 1892, and that this was changed to boriwen jet huamuang in 1901. Considering this, may I enquire as to the Patani's (referring to the historical Patani region) status from 1892 to 1901?<BR/><BR/>Wish you the best in your search to find out when Chana and Thepa (chenok and tiba in malay) were transferred to songkhla!<BR/><BR/>Also of interest to you might be the history of Na Tawi and Saba Yoi (Nawi and Sebayu in malay) which Wiki says was split from Chana and Thepa respectively.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16351496993788606178noreply@blogger.com