tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2883204318916261809.post2652192792442501302..comments2022-05-22T13:35:55.986+02:00Comments on Changwat, Amphoe, Tambon: Etymology of Thesaban and ThesaphibanAndyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17710647861853833065noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2883204318916261809.post-33434491115916681992010-02-28T16:10:51.989+01:002010-02-28T16:10:51.989+01:00Maybe, but my wife pronounces thet-sa-phi-ban. And...Maybe, but my wife pronounces thet-sa-phi-ban. And she is Thai.Michael Brücknerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15228033050533515498noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2883204318916261809.post-72888394061856481302008-11-28T18:19:00.000+01:002008-11-28T18:19:00.000+01:00RID is created by Thais for Thais, so they don't a...RID is created by Thais for Thais, so they don't always spell everything out. <BR/><BR/>They only provide a guide for words with ambiguous pronunciation, and since เทศาภิบาล only has one possible pronunciation, [เท-สา-พิ-บาน], they don't spell it out.<BR/><BR/>They give [เทด, เทดสะ-, เทสะ] in an attempt to cover the bases of how the word can be pronounced in different contexts. Here's how to interpret the three:<BR/><BR/>(1) if it's one syllable in isolation, it's pronounced [เทศ] (falling tone).<BR/><BR/>(2) if it's one syllable in a compound, it's (nominally) [เทด-สะ] (falling tone). The second syllable nominally has a low tone, but in reality it's an unstressed syllable, so the tone is insignificant.<BR/><BR/>(3) if it's two syllables, it's [เท-สะ] (mid tone). The tone on the second syllable in the case of เทศะ would be low, but I think the real point here is to show that the first syllable has a mid tone.<BR/><BR/>It's this third option that applies to เทศา, even though the final vowel is different. The RID folks just expect their audience, native Thais, to know this as a matter of course.<BR/><BR/>I don't have a good answer for your hypothetical signmaker. But for every sign in RTGS in Thailand there are a hundred that aren't. :PAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2883204318916261809.post-83292873170733518002008-11-27T19:49:00.000+01:002008-11-27T19:49:00.000+01:00I would like to make here a point which derives yo...I would like to make here a point which derives your remark at the end "... I realize it breaks the rule,...":<BR/><BR/>With my own strong wording "From my point of view this allows a single conclusion:" I wanted to show how I would apply the rules (let me say as the civil servant being responsible for the romanization of the road sign in front of เทศาภิบาล, or เทศบาล respectively).<BR/><BR/>I used เทศาภิบาล as there more trickey starting point how I (civil servant...) would now use RID:<BR/><BR/>เทศาภิบาล ดู เทศ, เทศ-, เทศะ.<BR/><BR/>So, for the question how to pronounce (a requirement for romanization according to RTGS) it correctly I should have a look on - and that's now part of my interpreation - on the (single) entry for a single term เทศ, a composed term starting with เทศ-, and single term ending on a glottal stop เทศะ.<BR/><BR/>The resulting (du --->) entry เทศ, เทศ-, เทศะ [เทด, เทดสะ-, เทสะ] itself, however, I read as Farang ---- and I write again only for this question (not for right or wrong, I have also no strong feelings on that) --- as single syllable term with stop, dead, falling tone [เทด], as double syllabe term with stop = mid tone + low tone [เทสะ], in composed terms, however, it "makes" two syllables, each with a stop, the first in falling, the second in low [เทดสะ-].<BR/><BR/>Arrived on this point the question may be --- and what to do with the sara อา?<BR/><BR/>Actually I (may I be a Farang or the Thai civil servant) already visited เทศาภิบาล ดู เทศ, เทศ-, เทศะ for this question only. I also know the santhi (สนธิ) rule deza + abhi = dezaabhi = dezAbhi = เทศาภิ ... but what does this help me?<BR/><BR/>Concerning whether I simply (???) applied the rules and you simply (???) did brake them:<BR/><BR/>Did I miss something as Farang, as Thai civil servant responsible for the romanization of เทศาภิบาล on a road map, did you miss something, or is RID missing something?<BR/><BR/>Or means เทศาภิบาล ดู เทศ, เทศ-, เทศะ ... take the สนธิ rules - in addition - into account?<BR/><BR/>Again, I showed only how I would apply the rules (of RI, RID, RTGS), as I understand themBloggStockhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11591946441141854551noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2883204318916261809.post-2778618650574815032008-11-27T18:14:00.000+01:002008-11-27T18:14:00.000+01:00First off: เทศาภิบาล [เทดสะพิบาน]thet-sa-phi-ban i...First off: เทศาภิบาล [เทดสะพิบาน]thet-sa-phi-ban is just wrong.<BR/><BR/>There is only one way to read this in Thai: เท-สา-พิ-บาน = the-sa-phi-ban. The long vowel สระอา makes it so.<BR/><BR/>RID's pronunciation guide in the case of words like เทศบาล works more as a guide for reading the right tones than as a guide to real pronunciation. You can say it [เทด-สะ-บาน] with a clear /t/ in the first syllable if you want to, but it's kind of like pronouncing the "b" in "debt".<BR/><BR/>I've certainly never heard [เทด-บาน], nor do people say it เทสะบาล, as you've written, which would require a mid-tone on the first syllable.<BR/><BR/>Rather, it has a falling tone as prescribed. However, as I mentioned, the stop consonant is not fully articulated.<BR/><BR/>If we were to write it in phonetic Thai, it would have to be something like [เทสสะบาล], with an actual /s/ at the end of the first syllable, even though that is technically impossible according to prescriptive rules of Thai pronunciation. But the ideal and the reality are different things.<BR/><BR/>While I understand the desire for order and uniformity, I don't think slavish adherence to RTGS where it doesn't make sense is a good thing. Particularly in light of the thesaban/thesaphiban connection.<BR/><BR/>I don't feel super strongly about the issue, though. I've just given my opinion, and my personal justification for it. I realize it breaks the rule, but I think there's just cause.Rikkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17196282287835224940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2883204318916261809.post-44532768465376028832008-11-26T13:01:00.000+01:002008-11-26T13:01:00.000+01:00RID provides us with the following entries:เทศาจาร...RID provides us with the following entries:<BR/><BR/>เทศาจาร ดู เทศ, เทศ-, เทศะ. <BR/>เทศาภิบาล ดู เทศ, เทศ-, เทศะ. <BR/><BR/>เทศ, เทศ-, เทศะ [เทด, เทดสะ-, เทสะ] <BR/><BR/>From my point of view this allows a single conclusion:<BR/><BR/>In Thai, satha akson thai, and RTGS:<BR/><BR/>เทศาภิบาล [เทดสะพิบาน]thet-sa-phi-ban<BR/>เทศบาล [เทดสะบาน] thet-sa-ban<BR/><BR/>I see only this solution. RID does not allow any other interpretation, and is not ambigous on this question. Accordingly, เทศบาล shoudl be pronounced as [เทดสะบาน].<BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/>Whether the inhabitants of เทศบาล pronounce it more like [เทดบาน]/thet-ban or [เทสะบาน]the-sa-ban may indicate that they do not consider it as a composed term. The regional view, however, has no effect on the rules of RTGS.<BR/><BR/>deza (Sanskrit, I use Harvard-Kyoto) means:<BR/>point, region, spot, place, part<BR/><BR/>abhipAla <BR/>(((อภิบาล ก. บํารุงรักษา, ปกครอง. (ป., ส. อภิปาล).))), Sanksrit, means protector.<BR/><BR/>abhi, as a single term, or by itself, is not a Sanskrit but Pali term (((อภิ คําประกอบหน้าศัพท์ที่มาจากภาษาบาลีและสันสกฤต มีความหมาย <BR/> ว่า ยิ่ง, วิเศษ, เหนือ, เช่น อภิรมย์ = ยินดียิ่ง, อภิญญาณ = ความรู้วิเศษ, <BR/> อภิมนุษย์ = มนุษย์ที่เหนือมนุษย์ทั้งหลาย. (ป.).)))BloggStockhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11591946441141854551noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2883204318916261809.post-77333185754532392262008-11-26T12:15:00.000+01:002008-11-26T12:15:00.000+01:00This comment has been removed by the author.BloggStockhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11591946441141854551noreply@blogger.com